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Tom Helikar - UNL: Good morning, good good afternoon and good evening to everybody welcome back to our last day of our cross disciplinary education, research, conference.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: today's today's programming will start with our keynote speaker speaker Dr Cathy Perkins Dr Perkins is associate professor in physics in.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: University of Colorado boulder she's also the director of interactive simulations project and the director of university of Colorado science, education initiative.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Dr Perkins received her bachelor's degree in physics master's in chemistry and PhD in atmospheric sciences from Harvard University and she joined.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: The fed project in 2003 and then since 2008 she has been the director of of these efforts.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Research her education, research, has focused on pedagogically effective design and use of interactive simulations sustainable core three form students beliefs about science and institutional change.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Thank you so much, Dr Perkins for joining us today, and we all look forward to your keynote presentation.

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Kathy Perkins: Thank you very much it's.

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Kathy Perkins: Great to be here and to have the chance to talk with everyone.

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Kathy Perkins: Let me go ahead and start by sharing my screen.

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Kathy Perkins: So I can everybody hear me okay we're good.

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Kathy Perkins: Good okay so um today i'm going to focus on a new effort we have around expanding what simulations can do and how they can fit into the education ecosystem and also can inspire new ways of doing research and new opportunities around researching interactive simulations.

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Kathy Perkins: I can start with just a super brief introduction I think most people are familiar with the basics effects as we've been around for a while, but we are a project that started in 2002 and we have.

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Kathy Perkins: Both a product development side, where we're designing and building and disseminating interactive simulations.

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Kathy Perkins: And then, our group has a research side, where we're looking at the design of a simulation specifically but also looking how simulate at how simulations.

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Kathy Perkins: can be integrated into the classroom and how that can impact students student interactions teacher student interactions and interactions between students and the content itself.

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Kathy Perkins: I want to give you some examples of sort of where we're going when we redesigned simulations from their original legacy version into html5 we have been engaged in this process since 2013.

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Kathy Perkins: And we did a lot of learning between 2002 and 2013 so we've been.

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Kathy Perkins: Implementing that learning as we redesign and redevelop the simulation so for those not familiar with this simulations.

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Kathy Perkins: fed simulations have lots of different options to do they're kind of an open exploratory space where you can do things the you know engage and experimentation to discover concepts, for instance, here, the relationship between speed and energy in many of our new simulations we have these.

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Kathy Perkins: Additional.

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Kathy Perkins: Measures measurement and representations, for instance, here we have a new measuring tool, where you can go ahead and measure energy at different points on the track.

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Kathy Perkins: And we have a whole new screen that is focused on graphing and here you can look at two different sorry something similar way.

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Kathy Perkins: Two different kinds of graphs either energy versus position or energy versus time.

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Kathy Perkins: The other simulation I wanted to show you was the natural selection simulation So while we don't.

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Kathy Perkins: We haven't had a big graph in a group a big grant and biology, we do have some.

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Kathy Perkins: Specific simulations for biology and I just wanted to welcome the biologists and bullet biology education researchers to explore these types of simulation so in this one, you can decide what.

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Kathy Perkins: mutation whether you want the brown for mutation to be dominant and recessive and then you can see how that emerges over the course.

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Kathy Perkins: of different generations, and you can look at different sorts of things like the pedigree of this particular bunny who had been mutation.

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Kathy Perkins: You can look at the proportion across different generations, or the population graph again taking out a data probe now and being able to take data along the way you can add limited food, so the bunny population doesn't get out of control, and you can go onto the.

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Kathy Perkins: onto the next.

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Kathy Perkins: on to the next screen, where you then have additional mutations you can play with around ears, which basically has no impact and teeth, which is a selector for tough food.

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Kathy Perkins: So we are continually continuing to bring simulations to html5, as we have resources, the goal is really to provide a tool that can simultaneously address.

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Kathy Perkins: Multiple goals and instruction both content learning process goals around.

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Kathy Perkins: experimentation data collection questioning reasoning modeling those sorts of things and create a tool that students find enjoyable engaged double understandable really working on that sort of an effective goal and then something that can be disseminated freely and easily.

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Kathy Perkins: Basically around the world, and today we have 158 simulations 85 in html5 right now 2007 bass lessons have been shared to our.

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Kathy Perkins: lesson database and if you do create lessons I invite you to add yours to the collection and they're used a K 12 and college.

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Kathy Perkins: they're all open educational resources they're translating the 90 languages and they run online or offline, and this is the I uses curve I didn't have a chance to update it, but now we're up to 200 million simulation uses per year that's that's really up about a devil from last year.

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Kathy Perkins: primarily due to cove it.

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Kathy Perkins: we've had expansions over the years into different content areas, and we do hope to continue to expand our collection we've also had technology advancement so.

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Kathy Perkins: One of the first was making some translatable than html5 than working on.

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Kathy Perkins: creating additional accessibility parameters around description and certification and i'll show you what we're also doing with some sort of fed io project.

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Kathy Perkins: They do have global impact right and we're 50% international and I just wanted to show you sort of some of what happened at covert and when covert hit last March, so this was in France.

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Kathy Perkins: yellow orange is last year blue is this year and we definitely saw a huge uptake of this simulations as the students moved to remote learning which we.

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Kathy Perkins: We were pretty excited to see that.

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Kathy Perkins: As an indication that the simulations for helping to keep students learning science and math during this challenging time.

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Kathy Perkins: we've also had a surgeon sort of research that uses the fit simulations, so this is a plot of from Google scholar of just a search of fit simulation education.

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Kathy Perkins: articles, these are all in research journals but what we've seen is a growth since we moved html5 and especially growth around.

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Kathy Perkins: In international research and we see the research really probing many different things it probe student learning, but it also probes problem solving.

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Kathy Perkins: An effective experiences around science and math it it really ranges and one of the goals of this new initiative is to expand the kinds of questions and research, you can engage answer with fed simulations by providing additional.

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Kathy Perkins: flexibility of the simulations and research data out so want to move to focusing on introducing you to these next generation said simulations you've seen.

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Kathy Perkins: The html5 ones on our website, but I want to give you a bit of a history.

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Kathy Perkins: We really wanted to envision these next generation simulations as being driven by what we already knew.

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Kathy Perkins: about how fit simulations worked how they were designed, how they how teachers were leveraging them, but we wanted them to go beyond what they were able to do back when they were just Java and flash, and so we also engaged.

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Kathy Perkins: and looked at the Community needs so we back in 2014 we held a stakeholders meeting that included educators learning designers assessment professionals researchers, both in deeper and the learning sciences.

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Kathy Perkins: inclusive design and accessibility experts in education technology companies we brought them together and really envisioned sort of the capabilities that we wanted to bake into the new simulation so we have.

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Kathy Perkins: and well.

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Kathy Perkins: We have two different styles of simulations we have the Fed simulations you find on our open accessible website so these.

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Kathy Perkins: yeah.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: i'm sorry, there is a Gray bar across your slide at the top right, what are your mouse is right now yep now it's gone is that.

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No.

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Kathy Perkins: yeah maybe somebody I don't know why it's there, I mean, I know, sometimes the zoom it's a zoom it's the zoom thing but um.

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Kathy Perkins: I don't know how to turn it off it's the one that says admit like you know when people are in the waiting room.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Oh.

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Kathy Perkins: Does anybody.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Definitely, do you know how to.

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Kathy Perkins: know how to like not have that pop up for me.

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Stephanie Vendetti- UNL CSMCE-  (she/her): And you should be able there's a carrot or an arrow to close that notification box should be up at the top.

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Kathy Perkins: Well, I.

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Kathy Perkins: I closed.

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stood a full screen auction.

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Kathy Perkins: Well i'll just keep closing it when it pops up there.

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Stephanie Vendetti- UNL CSMCE-  (she/her): You X out of it.

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Kathy Perkins: Is there are there, we go.

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Kathy Perkins: hey yes, so please tell me if it reappears but.

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Kathy Perkins: Last night I was on zoom in that Gray box wasn't appearing.

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Kathy Perkins: Thank you, it was gone, but thanks for letting me know.

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Kathy Perkins: um.

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Kathy Perkins: So I.

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Kathy Perkins: So with these next generation simulations we have the html5 goal of bringing these.

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Kathy Perkins: simulations to be usable on all devices, including phones and tablets translatable embeddable and highly accessible, which is a project in progress.

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Kathy Perkins: And those are the 8587 cents, you see on our website, we also was envisioned was the ability to customize the simulation so really hide and show anything on the simulation set the starting state, so you can match it to your learning or instructional moment design test feature.

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Kathy Perkins: You know, being able to use it in assessments to make it interoperable, so it can it can talk with any education technology that you have you can.

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Kathy Perkins: set the stage from that technology, you can pull the back end data out of the simulation into that technology, so you can really start to think about how to create.

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Kathy Perkins: A full learning environment and and sort of watch what students are doing in that learning environment, so you don't just know how they answered your questions, but you actually can see inside what they're doing with the simulations themselves.

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Kathy Perkins: So I want to give you a little bit of a tour of what this new technology looks like looks like it's called fat io.

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Kathy Perkins: N, and you can customize the simulations so i'm going to start with just a basic DEMO you can.

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Kathy Perkins: make a just one screen, which you can do with other simulations you can hide or show control so let's say you don't want students to see this photon view you just want them on the beam view you can completely hide those controls.

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Kathy Perkins: You can set the starting state, if you want them to start with a filter on, and you can modify labels we've got to be on this is just a DEMO I want to give you a little bit of what it actually.

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Kathy Perkins: looks like, so this is an actual selection and our new fat io studio.

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Kathy Perkins: So this is a exposes the inner workings of the code to an instructional designer at a level that they can actually I know it looks like a lot, but you can actually.

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Kathy Perkins: Pretty easily come to be acquainted with this so each screen has the model and the view the view is anything that's visible so let's say you want to create a situation in the simulation where you want to.

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Kathy Perkins: start with no wolf so you would go to the environmental factors panel.

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Kathy Perkins: Go to the wolves checkbox and just you can just make the wolves checkbox invisible so now that you're setting and let's say you know you want to have this population graph but you don't want students to get distracted by those other graphs you can just.

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Kathy Perkins: then go to the graphs.

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Kathy Perkins: The choice radio button and make that entire thing invisible, you can preset the mutation to have a brown dominant mutation and then you can.

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Kathy Perkins: launch the simulation in that specific mode so as you embedded in your activity would come up in this setting that you had configured and then the students would be able to look to use it in that, and this could be embedded as an iframe in an in a full activity.

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Kathy Perkins: So that is sort of.

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Kathy Perkins: The full customization the integration we allow.

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Kathy Perkins: I data to be pulled in and out and i'm just going to kind of show you an example of this virtual lab so.

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Kathy Perkins: You can customize again just down to one saw you here, you can shake in.

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Kathy Perkins: And this is monitoring the students to see if they can make a saturated solution, and when they do make a saturated solution, the external iframe can detect that and give them feedback, so these.

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Kathy Perkins: New features allow you to create to monitor what students are doing and explore the role of hints or feedback I in that learning process.

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Kathy Perkins: And then you can record data out so you can build.

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Kathy Perkins: This is an external data record button every time and press it it goes back to the same and say hey give me your data, and then the the external website just puts it into a table.

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Kathy Perkins: So you can record out data, you can record out actually the entire state, so I can revisit any one of these previous data points I got and push it back into the into the simulation.

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Kathy Perkins: And I you can also if you want to get into the details and log back into events so.

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Kathy Perkins: i'm.

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Kathy Perkins: Sorry just keep closing that I, so I every event or interaction the students do is logged.

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Kathy Perkins: Through a common json log file, but you can imagine it generates a whole lot of data as you detect what students to.

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Kathy Perkins: You can also capture this states which is tells you what the state of the simulation is but it doesn't tell you how students got there.

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Kathy Perkins: And you can capture input events so where the mouse, is what the mouse is doing, and right now, this these mouse events are being played back into that lower copy of the simulation on the lower right.

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Kathy Perkins: So that's the suite of capabilities that were envisioned by this group of cross disciplinary and sector, stakeholders and we are now essentially on the verge of realizing many, many of those features.

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Kathy Perkins: accessibility is in the work it's a challenging very challenging and then we've also realized, a lot of these more advanced features and we're working on growing the same collection, we have in that so by.

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Kathy Perkins: When you embed simulation now into a learning environment, you can think about the new opportunities for learning and research.

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Kathy Perkins: So I mentioned sort of you can monitor what students are doing, think about the role of feedback in activities or assessments.

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Kathy Perkins: And you can probe you can think about what can you measure, now that you couldn't measure before, because you can actually see students action, and you can explore that back in data and probe what.

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Kathy Perkins: You know what patterns of interaction lead to productive learning or what patterns of interaction indicate that students, you know are proficient at this sort of science practice or that sort sort of science practice and it provides a lot of instructional opportunity for designing.

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Kathy Perkins: You know, new challenges for students by setting the simulation simulation up in a particular state, so this is just an example um any garden had built out this nice sin Bay slab.

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Kathy Perkins: That included both process and content goals, where he had this hooks loss and relation and students were collecting data in a spreadsheet.

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Kathy Perkins: And, but now you can imagine that you could customize the same you could design an instructional rapper you could follow students.

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Kathy Perkins: Actions you could provide adaptive feedback and you could assess on both process and content by embedding this in some sort of learning platform, so I want to give you some research examples now of collaborators that have been using.

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Kathy Perkins: These new capabilities of federal your simulations, and this is sort of was inspired before we fully got fed I Oh, but we were logging back in events dreams so Julia Chamberlain was a postdoc with fat and in this study we looked at the.

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Kathy Perkins: effect of guidance different levels of guidance on.

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Kathy Perkins: The way that college students interactive with the simulations, and so they were engaging the simulations in their lab sections and we.

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Kathy Perkins: recorded out a log of event streams of user interactions and then analyze that long.

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Kathy Perkins: We went from sort of light guidance, where we asked him to explore the same make sure to investigate all the factors to moderate guidance, where we.

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Kathy Perkins: You know, had a little bit more direction compare strong and weak acid describe all the ways that they're similar in different but still pretty open and then have the guidance where students were more told what to interact with and what to do within the simulation.

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Kathy Perkins: And we thought we definitely saw impact in students, the level of student interaction with the simulation so the students that had the light.

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Kathy Perkins: and guidance had the most interaction with the simulation and students with the heavy guys had the least and.

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Kathy Perkins: The students with the light guidance also explored almost 100% of the features within the simulation on their own and the moderate guidance as well, and the heavy guidance was a really.

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Kathy Perkins: impacted if you didn't tell them to explore it, they did not explore it so that told us a lot about the influence of heavy guidance on how students interact with simulations.

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Kathy Perkins: and eat a role is learning scientists and he has gone deeper in this direction and use leverage to enter and learning in Atlanta and learning analytics.

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Kathy Perkins: In his research, so this is a study that he did with 100 first year college students in the introductory physics courses and again with two different levels of scaffolding we call it a guidance cause it scaffolding it's essentially the same type of.

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Kathy Perkins: it's very similar and.

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Kathy Perkins: He logged 100 hours of data from these.

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Kathy Perkins: Student users and that was 103,000 actions Just to give you a sense of how much data is generated by a simulation at.

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Kathy Perkins: The study was structured as a pre test to study to understand their knowledge about circuits and then two conditions that students first unit this activity one they either did an unstructured activity or a directive activity.

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Kathy Perkins: And then inactivity to all of the students didn't unstructured activity and then the post test measured both their understanding of activity one and their understanding of activity to unstructured activity was similar to what I showed you about julia's.

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Kathy Perkins: You know, pretty open use the simulation to explore how voltage current and brightness depend on the number and arrangement arrangement of light bulbs structured as similar.

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Kathy Perkins: Learning goals, but, as you can see just from the look of this, it was much more structured hat explicit data tables, they were asked to build specific configurations of light bulbs.

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Kathy Perkins: He looked at a variety things and i'm just going to give you a sense it's a very deep study and encourage you to go look at this paper that was an instructional science, if you want more information.

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Kathy Perkins: But.

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Kathy Perkins: First, on the impact of learning he did see.

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Kathy Perkins: A sort of the impact of learning on on low, these are this was selected for the students that had low pre knowledge so under the directive.

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Kathy Perkins: Case those students did learn, but they actually learned a little bit less than this Jews that were came in as low pre knowledge, but had the unstructured activity and then they all ended up about the same.

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Kathy Perkins: But.

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Kathy Perkins: Essentially, that the bottom line is the you know the unstructured activity was probably addressing many more of the kind of process goals that you would have in in.

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Kathy Perkins: Science learning and they learned, just as much he explored, whether the back end data could indeed predict learning from the simulations.

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Kathy Perkins: And he found that after about five minutes, the log file of you know if you did models, with the log files, you could predict learning so this was the percentage of interactions observed.

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Kathy Perkins: Examples of three different sorts of models he studied many different model combinations of the back end data I bet you can see it at about 10 minutes he was you know 65 to 70%.

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Kathy Perkins: Accurate not 10 minutes or 10% of the interaction he could.

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Kathy Perkins: have a pretty good accuracy of whether they were going to be a high learner or low learner and by the end of that interact those interaction events was even a higher accuracy, as to whether they were he could predict whether they were low learner or high learn.

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Kathy Perkins: He also investigated what productive students do so he kind of looked at.

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Kathy Perkins: three different types of things constructing a circuit pausing not doing anything i'm just pausing and and and thinking and.

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Kathy Perkins: sort of implied in that ties I.

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Kathy Perkins: Testing a circuit with one resistor testing a circuit with two resistors are testing a circuit with multiple resistors, and so the beginning of the interaction, so this is the you know, the first.

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Kathy Perkins: 240 seconds so students are constructing and then they go test, then they pause and they test them they construct some more.

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Kathy Perkins: than they test something more complicated a resistor with two circuits that circuit with two resistors then they pause and they build more complex test pod construct so they kind of going back and forth through these different sort of actions.

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Kathy Perkins: But then the pattern sort of changes they start actually pausing or so um they construct they do another test on this.

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Kathy Perkins: Two resistors circuit they pause they test again because they think and and they keep kind of going through this pattern, but with sort of longer pauses and and thinking.

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Kathy Perkins: And you can see here that they really focus on this.

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Kathy Perkins: They test a lot with this to.

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Kathy Perkins: Two resistors.

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Kathy Perkins: So when he looked at patterns in the data of unproductive learners he found that these unproductive learners often were testing with.

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Kathy Perkins: circuits that had lost lots of resistors more than two resistors and and that the pauses came before the construct and only before or after construct they didn't.

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Kathy Perkins: They didn't pause after pause before after construct and when he looked at productive learners he saw different patterns so.

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Kathy Perkins: Where they did a lot of testing of two resistors circuit and pausing after that those are the kind of patterns that he saw when he looked at the back end data and he was able to pull that out, and that was how you know the the way the signatures that allowed him to understand learning.

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Kathy Perkins: So.

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Kathy Perkins: So we've kind of looked at as example shows us how we can look to the impact of learning, we can look at the impact on prediction of learning and we can dive into sort of what the back end data is doing, and now I want to.

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Kathy Perkins: move on to sort of what these tools might be able to do in terms of advancing assessment and things that we can assess.

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Kathy Perkins: So.

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Kathy Perkins: She was a was a graduate student in Carl women's group when she did this work now she's a professor at Stanford and.

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Kathy Perkins: She was studying and how we can leverage this, this is a research tool actually right now, we do want to build it out for.

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Kathy Perkins: Four years but it's a research tool I how we can use this circuit construction kit and specifically this black box version to assess and knowledge and practices, give us insight into students Problem Solving practices, so I want to give you a sense of how different.

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Kathy Perkins: Students can be when they're interacting with this sort of tool.

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Kathy Perkins: So we're going to take a look at some videos.

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I think I need to share sorry.

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I did not share with you again okay everyone.

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Kathy Perkins: So this is Ellen.

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Sorry.

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So.

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let's see if.

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The top and the right.

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The top and the right.

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elder terminals are connected electrically.

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see it looks like.

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Oh, it is.

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Is that.

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So there is current.

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flowing in there.

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Does it not show the electrons moving.

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Zero in there.

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The bottom in the right.

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don't seem to be.

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Okay, so we seem to be though yeah.

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The battery.

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Kathy Perkins: So, as you see Ellen is being super systematic about how she's going through this.

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Kathy Perkins: This process of exploration so now let's do a comparison with gail and josh.

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Nothing is connected, I guess, so I think okay let's start with a wire.

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yeah connect a wire from here to here and see if there's a current.

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there's no current okay.

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How about I don't know if this is real good like try to connected like to all like just make it go all the way around.

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Like I like one.

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So get a wire another wire and go from there to there.

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And then another one.

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Okay, and i'm guessing there's still not gonna be any current okay great so there's no current That means that there's no battery in there.

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So.

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Okay.

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yeah Okay, so how about you get a battery and you attach it anywhere really can be anywhere.

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I think it means there's no battery it could be.

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Oh okay.

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That means that there's no resistor in there either.

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Because.

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Kathy Perkins: Okay So hopefully you saw that this sort of tasks can really provide insight into how students are thinking about Problem Solving and and the way they go about it, if we were to keep watching this we would see actually the problem solving approaches of this team.

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Kathy Perkins: evolved to be more systematic as time went along, so the other kind of interesting fact about simulations are these sorts of tools is that there can be learning as an assessment all at the same time.

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Kathy Perkins: So i'm shame I coded.

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Kathy Perkins: These interactions from these interviews and looked at different experimentation practices and reflective practices and looked at, you know how those were displayed within the interview, and this this research is being extended and to see what the back end data can tell us so.

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Kathy Perkins: that's ongoing work in carl's lab to now look at the at the learning analytics and which of these sort of expert and not as practices would.

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Kathy Perkins: are able to be kind of done at scale by looking at the back end data.

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Kathy Perkins: i'm going to leave time for questions, so I want to be sure to go to thank the funders of the project, in particular, the more Foundation has really.

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Kathy Perkins: been a great supporter of this latest work on said I Oh, and the new capabilities new kinds of research.

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Kathy Perkins: That were engaged in and and we have some new funding from the Dan price that's going to help us continue in this direction, want to invite you to find fed.

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Kathy Perkins: us the simulations your lab lecture so more contribute your lessons, you can support fit by downloading the APP on your phone and you can always email us, we like to get.

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Kathy Perkins: input from everybody in the Community, if you have a tweak to a simulation that you think would be good pedagogically if you want to engage in collaboration, specifically, we will be.

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Kathy Perkins: I think we will be having an opportunity to sort of expand our research collaborations around that I O, and so, if I if that new technology inspires you.

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Kathy Perkins: To.

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Kathy Perkins: look more at pedagogy around simulation based learning or learning analytics back in data and research or assessments or anything you can imagine, please.

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Kathy Perkins: do reach out to me and let's talk about that.

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Kathy Perkins: Without them going to end.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Thank you very much for a great presentation and for sharing your work with us, so we have.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: seven minutes, at least for some questions, and there are few in the chat box so i'll start translating them so first question from anya Goodman are you planning to hold workshops for faculty interested in developing or modifying simulations.

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Kathy Perkins: I.

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Kathy Perkins: We we don't usually hold workshops for faculty to develop their own simulations and, but we are, we definitely.

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Kathy Perkins: are interested in engaging in faculty that want to build out new kinds of.

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Kathy Perkins: simulations and happy to write research proposals around that usually that requires funding so and i'd love to build out a new suite of biology simulations and engage with a you know, a biology education researcher to in a proposal if they're interested in that sort of work.

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Kathy Perkins: You know same with data sciences or.

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Kathy Perkins: University based mathematics happy to do that sort of work in.

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Kathy Perkins: Building a new simulation for us is a big endeavor and it costs about $85,000 at call so it's it's not cheap.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Thank you another question from Nicole ground which is fed io as well available in different languages.

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Kathy Perkins: I said, I will be available in different languages yeah so so fat io right now we're still still emerging and it is.

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Kathy Perkins: it's a basis of a sustainable business model we have to really leverage that I owe you need to have sort of a platform for backend data collection.

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Kathy Perkins: Learning environment to hook up to for ios, so we are working with some partners to leverage that I oh.

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Kathy Perkins: I think recently pivot interactive announced that they're a new partner with us around fed io and so you'll see some of the features leverage within pivot interactive we do want to have a program for researchers, where researchers can engage with Al to do research, you know, without.

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Kathy Perkins: Without any cost.

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Kathy Perkins: But but it's still require it does require a license or just a simple arrangement with a researcher.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Thank you a question from Keith he says math guy question mathematically a lot of these tests can be represented by ordinary differential equations.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Do any of these simulations have an option to generate an OD or a system of all these to represent the situation, it would be really need for students to be able to make changes to the system and see how those changes influence the equations or vice versa.

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Kathy Perkins: So I think that would be possible with that I have because fed io hooks into the model, so you could give students, you could represent the oldies that are representing the the model.

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Kathy Perkins: And and give students hooks into it and and basically use that to hook into the model to.

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Kathy Perkins: you'd build sort of the external representation of what the odd looks like and then you create the hook into the model push that into the simulation and it would respond to the change the students did in OD.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Great Thank you a question from Rebecca if guidance if guidance leads to less exploration or learning, but certain exploration steps are associated with learning success which doesn't instructor go with.

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Kathy Perkins: um.

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Kathy Perkins: I think you should go with what you know you should instructions that Center on the learning goals you have um, so I think I you know if if processes and practices are.

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Kathy Perkins: Important in your learning goals us to stay pretty open and how that serves to how to instruct students to learn with tape to like how what kind of instructional tasks you give students and, but I think there's opportunities there to sort of.

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Kathy Perkins: Go Meta with your students and reflect on different ways of interacting with the simulation or or a tool and kind of help advance their overall.

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Kathy Perkins: Exploratory practices and show some of those relationships like this, you know, is it easier to understand this, or this so you can go more explicit on.

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Kathy Perkins: sort of.

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Kathy Perkins: You know, get feedback from your students, what did you learn and then and then go explicit on the learning, but we are that is sort of the goal of one of our current research projects with Carl is to understand how to help teach.

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Kathy Perkins: Expert Problem Solving strategies so maybe check back in a couple years and we'll have some.

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Kathy Perkins: more insight.

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Kathy Perkins: I think he's so far his group.

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Kathy Perkins: and working with Natasha homes they've they've discovered that asking students to make the decisions, is really a very powerful learning moment and decisions about what to measure things like that.

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Thank you.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: One more, I think we have time for one more question Have you looked at how well these reflective and experimental practices that students have been using in the simulation transfer into an actual laboratory setting.

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Kathy Perkins: That we have.

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Kathy Perkins: A long time ago early infant we did a research, study that I think provided some insight into that once I we've systematically.

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Kathy Perkins: studied that question, but we did early on was the 2004 2005 we did a study, where we had students use it, they circuit construction kit in lab.

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Kathy Perkins: And they either use the simulation or they use the real world, equipment and did sort of parallel.

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Kathy Perkins: similar activities for the two groups I and then everybody got a learning challenge with the real world equipment at the end and the students that had learned with the simulation were able to both build and build a circuit.

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Kathy Perkins: Faster as fast as the students that had learned with the real equipment, so they didn't really have a challenge with building with real equipment.

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Kathy Perkins: And they actually generated better explanations about how the real equipment was used was working so.

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Kathy Perkins: Somewhere they hadn't perhaps a better model of how circuits worked and and that really helped them when they turn to the real equipment, so that provides a little insight, but I would say it's probably really content, specific and some specific.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Okay Thank you so much again i'm sorry we can get to all the questions.

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Tom Helikar - UNL: Thank you so much, Dr Perkins for being here with us, and thank you for sharing your work.

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Kathy Perkins: Thank you for having me.